The Nun 2 Director Michael Chaves Says Yeah, You Should Be Looking For Conjuring Clues [Exclusive Interview]
It takes a certain amount of nerve to step into a horror franchise kickstarted by a filmmaker as singular as James Wan. But credit where credit is due: Michael Chaves has officially helmed as many films in the increasingly sprawling Conjuring Universe as its original filmmaker. He dipped his toes into the water with the "Conjuring"-adjacent "The Curse of La Llorona," but fully immersed himself with "The Conjuring: The Devil Made Me Do It." And now, he's back with "The Nun II," the sequel to the spin-off about the demon Valak and its many victims (all of whom lead us straight back to the core "Conjuring" films).
"The Nun II" is a traditional "Conjuring" film in all the ways you'd hope. It's a tour through a funhouse of increasingly clever jump scares, buffered by earnest characters and surprisingly wholesome relationships. When you're not jumping out of your seat, you find yourself surprisingly invested in the story of Sister Irene and poor, possibly doomed Maurice, whose fate has been teased throughout the entire "Conjuring" series thus far. The fact that Chaves allows "The Nun II" to function as a standalone horror film as well as a vital puzzle piece in the series' increasingly jam-packed timeline is a testament to its construction.
I recently sat down with Chaves over Zoom to talk about the film, the DNA of the Conjuring Universe, that big ending, and whether or not a certain popular theory about a certain popular character carries any water. Here's our conversation, with the spoiler elements clearly marked.
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.
'There is a timeline that was built, and I guess it continues to be built...'
I've joked for years that the first "Nun" is like a Hammer Horror D&D campaign, but "The Nun II" feels like a Hammer Horror Call of Cthulhu campaign. Are you an RPG fan? Is anybody in the Conjuring Universe an RPG fan?
I love RPGs. It's funny, right now I'm playing "Starfield," which I don't want to take any focus away from our movie, but I totally get sucked into the video games that are RPGs.
The Conjuring Universe is very consistent in terms of its world-building and mythology — everything makes sense when you look at it from afar. Are there other people who have to fact check the timeline? What's the process for adding to the canon of the Conjuring Universe?
There is a timeline that was built, and I guess it continues to be built, but was really set up between "Conjuring 1" and "Conjuring 2" as they started to shape what the universe was going to be. And obviously James [Wan] and Peter [Safran] and New Line had a big part in that. [Writer] Dave Leslie Johnson was part of that braintrust as well. And from that, we've all been building and contributing to that timeline. Definitely the exorcism of Maurice is one of those cornerstone events in the timeline. We see it in the first "Conjuring," we see it in the second "Conjuring," and we know Valak was a part of that and that is something that we know following this throughline with Maurice that it inevitably leads to that.
One of the things that strikes me about every "Conjuring" film is that the characters often run toward danger. We're not rooting for Valak or for Annabelle, we're rooting for the human characters. Is that baked into the DNA of a "Conjuring" film? How do you approach that as a horror filmmaker?
Yeah, I think it honestly comes down to these stories ultimately [being] about good and evil, and the goodest of good and the most evil of evil. I think that there's an element of faith that runs through this, and in this one we talk about God and saints. And I think that having that balance, this epic battle of good and evil, is one of the things that is one of those core elements of the Conjuring Universe.
'I love when a movie starts with just an insane, big cold open'
This film doesn't waste your time. The first five minutes have the first big scare of the movie and it doesn't mess around. Can you talk about really leaning into the merciless depiction of evil in this movie? Valak is not a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, horror character. He's evil.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that was one of the things I just wanted to — I love when a movie starts with just an insane, big cold open, it really just jumps into it. Whatever movie that is, whatever type movie genre it is, I'd love it when it's not holding back. And I think especially with this, I really wanted to show that Valak is back and Valak is pissed and to just start it in the most horrific way possible.
Between this film and "The Pope's Exorcist" from earlier this year, procedural horror Catholic investigation films are part of the zeitgeist right now. Is there a reason why people like me are obsessed with "priests and/or nuns who solve mysteries" horror movies?
It's a good question. I don't know why it's having such a moment. I think the Catholic Church has so much great history and so much great lore that is, in itself, it's really intriguing. And whether or not you are Catholic or atheist or whatever denomination you come by, I think there is something really interesting about that history. I think we're always fascinated by history and it is just a way to connect us to something bigger. And then the idea that there's a connection to something bigger, being connected to supernatural elements, whether it's holy or unholy, you're connecting to God or demons. I think that's really compelling stuff.
Whenever I try to convince a non-horror fan to see a "Conjuring" movie, I say, "There's a scene in "Conjuring 2" where Patrick Wilson sings Elvis." And "The Nun II" I think has a similar attention to character and emotion. Can you talk about making us care about these people before putting them in danger?
Oh yeah, 100%. I think you've got to make that investment because it's not really scary [if you don't]. It's easy when you get really scared. It's really also easy, especially when you're moving to this active path and what keeps you in your seat is you're worried about what's going to happen to these characters. And if you don't know them, you haven't made that connection beforehand. And I think that a lot of it is just in the actors, and giving them the time.
I'm so proud of this cast. I think that everybody in this movie delivered such an awesome performance and they're so engaging and they're so fun. And I think it is sad because there were so many great scenes left on the cutting room floor that we could shrivel some of these scenes and there's so much great character stuff that we actually did pull out just because of pacing and you have to balance it out. But we still really spent the time in investing and putting [in] these scenes. I think that it really shows that actors did such a good job. They really knocked it out of the park.
'It was such a rough idea. It seriously sounded like somebody crazy'
The movie does a really good job of balancing between the big scares and the smaller scares. The bigger scares are effective, but it was a smaller one, without even a musical sting, that made me jump out of my seat. Is building jump scares an art or a science? How do you approach these and maximize them as a filmmaker?
Oh my gosh, it's always a challenge. Because I think as fans, you don't want to see the same thing over again. And sometimes you need a sting, sometimes it needs to come out exactly what you're expecting. But I think the best scares, there's an element of surprise or there's ... just like with stories, there are twists and turns within these individual sequences that make them surprising and put you off guard.
There is the one scare in the movie that left me really impressed. I'd love for you to break down the magazine rack sequence. It feels like somebody in the process said, "We've got to do something here that we've never seen in Conjuring film," and it feels really specially unique. Can you just walk me through how this scare came to be?
There's definitely parts of the movie that were absolutely in that first draft [from screenwriter Akela Cooper]. This was an idea that I brought to the table very early on and it was a very loose idea. It came from ... I was just looking at old pictures of France and Spain during the '50s and I saw all these magazine stands and I just thought it's such, just because of the way print's changed, you don't really see a lot of magazine stands. They're not a fixture of streets and you don't see them on every corner anymore. So when I was looking at these old photos, I was like, "This is amazing. This is such a great relic of the past and it really makes you feel like you're in the '50s." And then I was looking at these photos and it's just on every magazine, it was this incredible illustrated or photographic cover, everything looked like it was so '50s and I just thought that would be an awesome thing to have in the movie.
And then I was like, "That could be a great scare." And I just started thinking about that. I was like, "What if there's an element of flip books that mix with collages?" And it basically is just a way that the Nun can manifest itself. And I was pitching that early on, and to everybody's credit, I had no idea what I was going to do with it. It was such a rough idea. It seriously sounded like somebody crazy: "It's a scene with a newsstand and it's a flip book and it's collage!" But honestly, to the credit of New Line and James [Wan] and Peter [Safran], they were totally supportive. They were like, "We don't totally see it, but go with God. Go ahead."
And as we went into it, it was incredibly complicated. I wanted to do at least a chunk of it practically, that we did, and there's mechanical effects in there, but those became really problematic and they would break and it was just always falling apart. So there is an element of visual effects that went into it and helped align the papers and then just sped up the papers. But I'm still proud of — I think it came together really well and I think it's a scene I'm really proud of. It was literally one of the first things I came up with in the pitch. It was the last thing that I was working on. We were literally finishing visual effects shots up until the very last day that we could. And it's because it was such a complex sequence to take it from the beginning to the end. It's one of those things, if I knew how complicated it was, I don't know if I would've jumped into it as blindly as I did, but I'm glad that I did.
Speaking of scenes that were probably a pain the butt to film, I've got to know about working with that amount of wine, or, I'm assuming, a substitute for wine. We've seen a lot of holy water in horror movies, but Communion wine is a whole other level. I'm assuming it gets a lot messier and trickier to film.
Yeah, we had a bunch of resets on that. It wasn't wine. You would think they have just plenty of wine lying around in France. But it became an issue of ... we couldn't use wine. We had to be careful about what we were using because it would actually stain everybody's clothes and that would be a big deal to get them cleaned up for another take. We shot it over a couple different days and I think we did two of those wine explosions a day. We just would do it in the morning. We went and shot some other stuff as they cleaned up the set and reset the wine and then we would come back to that final one at the end of the day.
'There's clues even in the very first 'Nun' movie if you look at it'
The rest of this interview delves into major spoilers, including the final scene of the film.
I've got to ask about the credit scene. We see the Warrens, we know that the exorcism of Maurice is coming. We know that it ties in "The Conjuring" and "The Conjuring 2," as you said, but that phone call can't help but feel cheeky. It's real "insert your Nick Fury joke here." The forces are assembling. Are you planting the seeds for a final "Conjuring" movie where everybody comes back?
I think that they're still writing it. They're still working on it. There's definitely "Conjuring: Last Rites" is coming. And in terms of the exorcism of Maurice, that's always been a center, a cornerstone marker in the timeline and I think it's up to interpretation. It's also, I think there's a lot of things that need to align, so it could go a couple different ways.
Would I be off base if I said a movie where Valak and Annabelle and everybody else from previous films shows would be a movie you'd want to make?
As an audience member, I would 100% see it. I couldn't give away what I know about what's being developed, but I know that they're going to end with a bang. I know that there is a great finale being planned for "Last Rites" and as to what or who's in it ... I don't want to give away any spoilers.
One more quick "Conjuring" timeline question. Sister Irene is played by Taissa Farmiga, sister of Vera Farmiga from "The Conjuring." With the revelation in this film that Irene is descended from Saint Lucy, does that confirm speculation that Lorraine Warren is also her descendant? And that these two are tied together beyond their offscreen family connections?
I mean, I think from the beginning it was too much of a coincidence to have nearly identical sisters in the same movie. It's funny because people have seen them and thought they were the other. I think it was always part of the ultimate goal is to tie them in and I think that there's always been a connection. It's funny because there are ... there's clues even in the very first "Nun" movie if you look at it, and I think people have picked this up online because I think I have seen this online. People have picked out a connection before and so the idea of bloodline has already been in there. This definitely expands that conversation. Yeah, it definitely expands.
"The Nun II" is in theaters now.