Shrinking Writers Brett Goldstein And Neil Goldman Pay Respect To Therapy [Exclusive Interview]
Brett Goldstein and Neil Goldman are two of the key voices behind the new Apple TV+ series, "Shrinking." Goldstein is the co-creator of the show with his "Ted Lasso" pal, Bill Lawrence, and Goldman executive produces with his past "Scrubs" collaborator. Together, Goldstein and Goldman wanted to produce a comedy about therapy. The story follows a therapist (played by Jason Segel) in a spiral and suffering from grief.
Goldstein, who hosts the excellent "Films to Be Buried With" podcast, wants laughs without ever poking fun at therapy. As Goldstein and Goldman told us, they have nothing but respect for the process and profession. It was important for that to ring loud, clear, and true in "Shrinking." Recently, the two writers told us how they worked with consultants to ensure authenticity, as well as why the classic comedy "Airplane!" holds up after all these years.
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.
'You care the airplane lands'
For the both of you, what about "Shrinking" represents what you want to see out of a comedy?
Goldstein: Well, I'm sure Bill [Lawrence] agrees with this, and Neil definitely agrees with this, don't you? I don't think there's any point in telling a story if you don't have an emotional connection to it. If you don't feel invested and moved by it, it sort of just doesn't last. It becomes meaningless. It's frivolous. We were even talking yesterday about one of the reasons "Airplane!", which you think of as such a silly film with 100 jokes a minute and is hilarious, why it's lasted.
I do think the reason that it's lasted as long as it's done is because you do care. You care the airplane lands, you care about this romance in it, you want them to succeed. You're invested in these characters, as ridiculous as that film is. It's quite an extreme example, but it still has heart, that film. It still has emotion in it. I think without that, I don't want to watch it. I don't want to make it.
I like that this is a comedy that asks questions, but doesn't really answer them. Neil, what were some of the questions you had on your mind with this that you wanted to explore?
Goldman: Just, is it possible, and how is it possible to be pulled back into the light once you're in such a dark place? I know there have been times in my life where I feel like, "How is life ever going to be the same, let alone enjoyable?" So in terms of the question, it's a question posed by Harrison's character, Paul, in the second episode when he says, "None of us get through this life unscathed." It's a question of whether we're going to drown or are we going to sort of face it and get through it? There is no getting through it unless you face it, but that's an easy thing to say. It's a hard thing to do. So most of the questions are related to that. What are the steps? What are the ways we can backslide? But ultimately, this hope that we hope is inherent in the show, which is that it's possible.
How about you, Brett?
Goldstein: I think I'm fascinated by therapy and I think it's a very important thing and I have it and think anyone who has access to it should do it. I'm interested in the kind of boundaries of it and the uniqueness of the relationship between the therapist and the patient and how you can be so close and yet not. In the world of this comedy, we can play with that a bit.
I think you are exactly right in that we asked questions. I don't know that we've got all the answers, because of course, we're not professional therapists, but we did an awful lot of research, had a lot of therapist consultants. We never wanted to be disrespectful to the profession of it. I just think it's an interesting world. And of course, everyone is people and people are flawed, no matter which position they're in in that story.
'Am I being a dick? You probably are if you're asking the question'
Neil, how was it having fun with the process of therapy but not making light of it or fun of it?
Goldman: The patients are the best litmus tests for that. You want these patients to be funny, but you don't want to be making fun of them or of their issues. That was a bit of a tricky line. You also want to have fun with and get comedy out of what Jimmy is doing as a therapist without ever feeling like he's veering into utter irresponsibility and that he's crossing an ethical line that he can't come back from.
I hope it comes across as respectful of the process and respectful of the people going through what they're going through, but also showing how there is some absurdity and [comedy], no matter what's going on in our lives, as dark or as hopeless as it may seem. It feels like that's very true to life. The hope was that it's part of what makes the show feel grounded and real and authentic. It's sort of a mirror with respect to that.
Brett, in your research and speaking with consultants and therapists, what really stuck with you that influenced the show?
Goldstein: There are things we use in the show in terms of actual tools, therapeutic tools that as the season goes on, you'll see there are various things in it that are legitimate practices. We had two or three people on call where we would send them the scripts and go, "Have we crossed the line here? Is this okay?" Because that was our rule. We wanted to play with it, but we didn't want to be disrespectful. We didn't want it to be so ridiculous it's like, "This is insane and offensive to the industry."
It was more checks and balances. It's always a balancing act. Obviously, this isn't a documentary about therapy and maybe it's more taste or instinct where you go, "Are we being dicks? If we're being dicks, we probably shouldn't do this." You know what I mean?
By the way, that's fantastic writing advice.
Goldstein: [Laughs] Yeah, are we being dicks? You sort of know in your head, sometimes something's really funny and then you're like, "Am I being a dick?" You probably are if you're asking the question.
'He's Harrison Ford'
You can tell Harrison Ford is enjoying himself on this show. How was it writing for his voice?
Goldstein: Yeah, I hate to say it, it's easy because it's him and it's kind of easy to write to his voice and he's so f***ing good. I'm not saying it's easy, easy, but it's a pleasure because you're excited to go, "He's going to say this and he is going to make this f***ing really funny or really moving." He's Harrison Ford.
Neil, how did things change once you saw the actors start to bring the characters to life?
Goldman: I would say the big picture is mapped out largely, and that doesn't change too much. We do try to leave ourselves some room for discovery as we go. We give the actors a little bit of free rein on set and sometimes they do things at times that we're like, "That's something that should come back or that we should develop further."
We try to plan but without restricting ourselves from learning and discovering new things. The end product is a nice combination of both the planning and the stuff that arose as these guys truly started to own their characters and bring them to life and make them feel to us like real people.
Brett, talking about going with your gut, now having an experience with Bill [Lawrence] on a show everyone has an opinion about, does having experience with that massive amount of feedback change things at all for you?
Goldstein: No, I think, look, "Ted Lasso" is such a phenomenon and totally unexpected and no one expected it to be the thing that it is. I also think that's a once in a lifetime thing. I'm not expecting anything else to have that kind of reach and connection. We never wrote "Ted Lasso" with that in mind. If you start aiming for that, then that way leads to madness.
I think you have to stick to your instincts and go, "This is a story I want to tell." It's always up to the audience, whether it speaks to them or not. If it speaks to a tiny audience that love it passionately and you're still allowed to work for a living, then f***ing great.
I think anytime you start trying to write toward or to hit some target, then — just look at every success story in entertainment: It's always a thing that no one expected. Always. And then everyone tries to replicate that thing and they get it wrong, and then something else comes along, a Western, and suddenly people go, "Oh, Westerns! It's always Westerns, right?" And you go, "No, it wasn't, when that first Western [came around], you didn't want a Western." Do you know what I mean? You just have to try and tell the stories you want to tell.
"Shrinking" is now streaming on Apple TV+.