TMNT: Mutant Mayhem Director Talks Needle Drops, Sequel Teases, And Fixing A Broken Movie [Exclusive Interview]
This interview contains major spoilers for "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem."
"Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem" is in theaters now, and it's another home run from director Jeff Rowe, who made waves in animation during the pandemic with the Netflix release of "The Mitchells vs. The Machines," which just so happened to be my favorite movie of 2021. So when the teaser trailer for "Mutant Mayhem" revealed another stunning display of visually unique and groundbreaking animation that promised to refresh and innovate one of the pinnacles of my childhood, needless to say I was buzzing with anticipation. So you can imagine the great satisfaction of seeing the movie in theaters and being totally floored by the innovation on screen.
Not only does "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem" bring mesmerizing animation to theaters with undeniable style, but it gives the beloved franchise a makeover by actually hiring real teens to voice the titular heroes. Furthermore, "Mutant Mayhem" makes you care more about the turtles as a family than any other iteration of the franchise before it, giving it a big beating heart alongside outstanding action and truly hilarious comedy. But delivering this movie wasn't as easy as ordering pizza.
After seeing the movie (twice), I spoke with director Jeff Rowe about the road of making "TMNT: Mutant Mayhem," and he revealed that, at one point, the filmmakers realized the movie was "fundamentally broken," and they basically had to start over from scratch. Plus, we talked about some of the amazing needle drops in the movie, using live-action movie clips within the animated world, and the grotesque look of Superfly's ultimate villain form. And buckle up, because we also dig into major spoiler territory by talking about the ending of the movie, the mid-credits sequence that teases the forthcoming sequel, and more. Let's dig in!
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.
'So if the kids are changing in their lives, then the Turtles should change in the film...'
So I wanted to start off by asking, was this movie intentionally built as an immigration fable? Because the Turtles very much feel like children of an immigrant, learning martial arts and becoming this family in the face of prejudice. It feels like them learning martial arts goes a lot more beyond just being a cool thing for them to do to defend themselves.
It wasn't necessarily built to be an immigration fable, but as the story started coming along organically, I think we started recognizing the threads and feeling like, "Oh, Splinter feels like maybe a first generation parent who moved to the country." A lot of people on the team have family situations like that. And it became something that we continued to lean into, because it felt resonant for a lot of people. So it wasn't the intention, but it became highlighted through execution.
Did you have to fight to cast four relatively unknown kids as the Turtles, or did Seth Rogen bringing in a lot of his friends to voice the other roles help make that an easier thing to convince the studio to do?
I think that was the trade-off, because doing the film was contingent on casting real teenagers in the roles, and I think it was just understood very early on that this will be four unknown actors. We're going to do a big casting search. We worked with Rich Delia, who was so good at this and brought us hundreds of people, and we found Nick [Cantu], Brady [Noon], Micah [Abbey], and Shamon [Brown Jr.], who are all amazing. But I think beyond that, the studio wanted some names in there and some marketability, so we went bigger on all of the other roles.
Are you worried about the kids aging out of the roles at all? Like their voices changing and whatnot?
No, I think we'll lean into it. It would be the funniest thing in the world if, for movie two, Micah Abbey just has the world's deepest voice, and we're just like, "Okay, great. Let's make him huge now. Let's give him muscles," whatever. Our whole filmmaking philosophy is built around accommodating reality, if that makes sense. So if the kids are changing in their lives, then the Turtles should change in the film, and we'll just write to that.
Speaking of which, obviously a big part of the dynamic is the teenage energy that they bring to the table. I know you had them record together, which was a really cool touch. We all know teens can be raunchy little goblins sometimes — we were all teens once. Was there anything particularly hilarious that stands out from the improvising sessions that you guys had that was maybe a little too "not safe for kid audiences"?
No, I mean the kids were pretty tame. I think they knew the rules. In earlier versions of the script, Seth and I would just write profanity into it, and we're like, "Let's see how much we can get away with." And then Brady Noon, for example, was always excited, "Can I say s*** in this? Okay, look, I'll just say s***." He was so happy to be given permission to swear for his job. But when improv-ing, they were generally pretty within the reins. They were pretty reined in. Ice Cube, however, there's a lot. We had to sort through a lot of what he said, all devastatingly funny. A lot of it, this cannot go in this PG family movie.
'There's something punk rock about just mixing media and visually rule-breaking in that way'
This might be my nerdiest question that doesn't have to do with "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" lore: How did you settle on using the live-action elements for the movies and videos that the Turtles watch? You have real clips from "Ferris Bueller's Day Off," you have some from Jackie Chan movies, random internet martial arts training videos. Why did you choose to make those live-action, and does that mean real people are animation for that universe?
No, yeah, one other person has asked about that. I don't think it's that literal. I think, to us, it was just funny, and it worked with the style. There's something punk rock about just mixing media and visually rule-breaking in that way. We're not going to recreate "Ferris Bueller" in animation. It won't connect as much to the audience. But I think something that works about it is both of those moments are things that they're idealizing or aspiring to, and the fact that it's more realistic or perfect than the world that they live in I think underscores how separate they feel from what they're trying to achieve.
Yeah, that's very cool. And I also love the way you incorporated "The Karate Rap" into it as well.
That was our editor, Greg [Levitan], who found that clip, and that was a really divisive thing. He put in that "I'm a ninja!"
I love that.
And we're like, "Oh, that's funny." Greg, who also edited "Mitchells," that is very much his sense of humor. And then at some point, people would be like, "That is the dumbest thing. Why is that in there? You have to get rid of that." And then at some point, we got rid of it, and other people were like, "What happened to 'I'm a ninja?' You got to bring 'I'm a ninja' back, that was the best part." And then we ultimately settled on "I'm a ninja," I think because it got a laugh at a screening in Burbank.
Circling back to those videos, there are some Jackie Chan clips in there, and obviously he's hilarious in the movie. But were you able to consult with him at all for action scenes, or were you just referencing clips that you had seen from his movies? Because Splinter's fight with the TCRI goons has some great Jackie Chan-esque moments.
Yeah, that scene really, really came together and Cinesite knocked it out of the park. The animation in that is so good and funny, and it looks great, but I believe it's "Every Frame a Painting" breakdown of Jackie Chan fights, and why they work. We tried to take a lot of those philosophies in the construction of these scenes. By the time Jackie Chan signed on, we had already shaped that to be the style of fight sequences, and then we showed him that sequence and had him do efforts and voice acting to the choreography that was already there. I think he liked it. I hope so.
'Then Seth was just like, 'What if it's a crazy version of 'What's Up' by 4 Non Blondes?'
I want to talk about some of the needle drops, because there are some really unexpected choices here. One that I loved was using "No Diggity" for that fighting montage. Were there any other songs that you tried for that sequence?
"No Diggity" was, I think, one of the first ones that we used, and then there were going to be challenges with the legal clearance of it. So we had a moment where we're like, "Okay, well, we have to find something else to put here." And we tried so many other things, like "Ruff Ryder's Anthem" by DMX. That's the one that maybe got the closest, but just nothing worked as well as "No Diggity," and we just had to commit to that. I remember the first time that we watched that in edit, me and our producer Ramsey McBean and Greg Levitan, the editor, all looked at each other like, "This is electric! This is amazing. It's got to be this."
Yeah, it just feels so smooth and cool.
Yeah, definitely.
And then the use of 4 Non Blondes' "What's Up" is hilarious on one level at first, and then it takes on a new form when you have the He-Man remix pick up. How did that come about?
So before that, there was a piece of music there that [composers] Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross did. It's on the soundtrack, it's called "Goochie Goochie Goo." And what's on the soundtrack is a three to four minute version of the track. The whole chase sequence used to just be scored by that, and it's the coolest piece of music. It's scary and tense and exhilarating. And we screened it once, and we're just like, "It feels like that scene needs to be funny. It feels like we're taking it too seriously." Then Seth was just like, "What if it's a crazy version of 'What's Up' by 4 Non Blondes? Just try it." And I think I was like, "No. No. Under no circumstances can it be that." Then we tried it, and we watched it in edit. I think we were all very tired, and we're like, "Honestly, this is the funniest thing."
Yeah, it's so good.
"It's got to be this." And then began the challenge of tracking down who made it, so that we could legally clear it for the film.
'It's kind of scary, but I think the movie is fundamentally broken...'
In other interviews, I know you've talked a lot about Shredder almost being the villain in this movie and getting the Turtles into high school super quickly in the first draft. I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about that version of the script and how different it was from this. What was the story there? Or is there some stuff there that you're saving for the sequel, since Shredder is teased in the credits?
There's a couple scenes that I hope come back or have a second life that we might be able to bring back for the sequel, so I won't spoil them. But yeah, it was extremely different. It was a high school movie. It was really hard to make the Turtles' life intersect with a crime villain plot in a natural way. Also, they got exactly what they wanted on page 30 of the script. So you just had to reset the movie 30 minutes in and then introduce a bunch of new characters and other kids in high school and new relationships, and it was just so tedious. But that was the movie that we had all agreed to make when we started.
I think Seth and I first broached that with each other maybe in a text message or something, but it was like, "Okay, I don't want to say this out loud, I'm just going to say this out loud. It's kind of scary, but I think the movie is fundamentally broken, and everything that we've assumed it has to be needs to change completely." When he voiced that, I felt, like, terror, mainly because he was 100% correct. It was like, "Yes, that's absolutely correct. We have to completely change everything. We don't have time to completely change everything. Let's figure out how to completely change everything." And I feel like that was only last summer.
Oh, wow.
That was July of last year. And then over the next four months, we completely rewrote, re-boarded, and made the film essentially what it is.
Was there any disappointment from Giancarlo Esposito when you decided not to make Baxter Stockman into Superfly and make him a new character entirely?
No. I think he knew what his part was, and he is such a wonderful actor and talent and just a really nice, wonderful person. But he knew what the role was, and I think that decision had already been made by the time that he was cast in the Baxter Stockman role.
'Yeah, she's not named Utrom by accident'
Now, I want to talk about the credits scene, because it seems like Superfly maybe could return. That's him zooming around in that jar that Cynthia Utrom has, right?
That is absolutely, I mean, well ... she has a fly in a hyper secure containment unit, I wonder what that is? [laughs] The thing is, Ice Cube is so compelling in that role, and Superfly is such a fun, memorable, lovable character, you don't want him to be dead.
No, of course.
You've got to be able to preserve the ability to bring him back. Also, I think someone pointed this out to me, where they're like, "I feel bad for Superfly." And I'm like, "I do, too."
Yeah.
He is kind of a victim of his circumstances. He definitely made some mistakes, but he's not ... yeah, I think he's a very sympathetic villain.
I think it's cool to have Ice Cube in that role, too. I feel like there are some parallels to his upbringing, what he dealt with in NWA, and the stereotypes that were thrust upon him, and all those kinds of things.
Yeah, Ice Cube grew up in the streets. Ice Cube has lived an authentically hard life, and he brings that to his character, and he's so funny.
Circling back to Cynthia Utrom, I couldn't help but notice that her name and her entire wardrobe seems to call to mind another signature "Ninja Turtles" villain.
You might be onto something. [laughs] Yeah, she's not named Utrom by accident. It gives us things to explore later, but I think there are questions to be asked about where did she come from? How did she end up in her role? What is TCRI? Why doesn't she age? There's mysteries to be uncovered.
'It felt like a great way to honor him and the beautiful gift he has given the world'
Another touch at the end is the Turtles wearing human clothes. And I was curious, is Mikey's Hawaiian shirt specifically inspired by Beachcombin' Mikey, the action figure?
100%. Yeah, absolutely.
Are there any other sneaky toy Easter eggs in there to be spotted?
At one point, Mondo Gecko has a roller skate on his tail, there's things like that. There's the TCRI environment, we really tried to make look like the Technodrome toy. It's not a toy thing specifically, but when the Turtles get electrocuted in TCRI, we do the 2D bone silhouette thing from the video game. But at one point, in the Shredder version, when they were in high school, there was a scene where they go to a party and then they just dress up as classic toys.
I wondered about that, because there's a toy pack that has the four figures in costumes that are some other wacky toys.
That's why they released them!
That's great.
Yeah, Astronaut Raph. Cowboy Leo. That was going to be a thing in the film at one point, and may come back for the sequel, but that's why that's there.
You have a cameo in the movie, too, but remind me what your credit is and where we can spot you.
It's embarrassing. When the Turtles are sadly returning to the sewer, they overhear a human remark, "I love being young and free to go places," which is a joke that we had. We just scratched into a screening and Seth was like, "This is stupid. We have to kill this." And then we showed it at a test screening in Burbank, and it killed. It was a huge laugh. And then I think Seth was begrudgingly like, "Okay, fine. I guess we'll keep that." Then I think we tried recording other people, and my scratch [recording] happened to be the funniest. I also have a cameo in "Mitchells" as the guy who likes fun. And I think I'm credited as "Guy Who Likes Fun." It's when the robots are taking over and it's like, "Hey, I like fun. No, people say that about me, I really do like fun."
[laughs] Yeah, I love that.
So my dumb, embarrassing joke to myself is that I named this character "Guy Who Likes Being Young and Free to Go Places," and that's a joke only for me. [laughs]
I saw Kevin Eastman's name, too, but I didn't see what his character credit was. Where's he at?
He's the human who helps Splinter up at the end. He helps him out. And we wanted that to be someone meaningful to the franchise, and we were so happy Kevin was willing to do that. I'm appreciative of the Stan Lee cameos in Marvel films, and it felt like a great way to honor him and the beautiful gift he has given the world.
'Wait, is he composed of animals writhing in pain?'
I wanted to ask about Superfly's final form, because it feels like this reaches a new level of Cronenberg nightmare compared to any of the other mutants. Did you get any pushback on that? Because he's super gnarly.
Not really. By the way, "more Cronenberg-like" is a note that I gave a lot in the making of this film. But we had that drawing, and it was funny. I think, at a couple points, people were like, "Wait, is he composed of animals writhing in pain?" And I was like, "Yeah, no, no, it's fine. You won't see it. It'll be dark. Don't worry about that." And it does walk the fine line of, "Don't stop and think about it. Don't stop and think about that the horses have feelings in his legs. It's a hive mind thing. Just don't think about it, do yourself a favor."
The one part that really solidified the monstrosity of it all is, every now and then, you see the various animals' eyes blink and it's just like, "Ew."
Yeah, the animators had fun with it. The animators really had a good time with putting pained expressions on the animals. And I would have to be like, "Let's maybe not make the animals look so pained," because I detest animal cruelty. I don't want to see that in the film or put that out in the world, which is also why it was important to see the animals run away at the end and know that they're okay.
I couldn't help but notice, when April was talking about the "Puke Girl" meme videos, one of them feels like it has the flourishes of a Katie Mitchell production. Was that something intentional?
100%, I think we used maybe even the exact same rainbow sound effect for that, but we were just like, "Yeah, this should feel like the thing." Oh, yeah. It's like, "Yeah, it's exactly what we did in 'Mitchells,' let's just make it seem like that."
Do you think that you'll ever come around to doing a new version of the "Ninja Turtles" theme? Were you tempted to do that this time, especially when you have people like Post Malone and Ice Cube hanging around?
Not really, because it was important to me — that's one of those things where it's like, say you put the "Ninja Turtles" theme in the movie. It works for a certain crowd and it works for a certain era of nostalgia for this franchise, and it's exciting on opening weekend. But then, hopefully, this film is remembered longer than that. I still think about the live-action films 30 years ago. When you put those things in, it dates it, and I think robs it of being its own iteration, which was really important for us to make this just stand on its own feet and be a fresh reintroduction of these characters. So the temptation was there, but I always squirmed away from it.
'I want to have a whole scene with Wingnut and Donnie talking about anime'
Is there anything that you're particularly excited to tackle in the sequel?
Shredder is so cool. I can't wait to introduce that character and figure out that character and design that character and figure out how the camera's going to move for that character. And I think also just seeing — it was a minute before we started recording all of the Turtles together at the same time, and that's when the movie really came alive. And I'm going to be excited to start there on this one and then see where we get to by the end.
Are you worried about what to do with the larger ensemble? Because you have all these mutants who are allies of the Turtles by the end, but among them you have characters like Bebop and Rocksteady, who are also typically, primarily villains. So will it be similar to the animated series where some of them go back and forth as bad guys and allies?
We're not sure yet. We're very early, but we cast all these great comedic performers in these roles, and we barely got to scratch the surface of using them in this film. I want to see a whole scene between Bebop and Rocksteady. I want to have a whole scene with Wingnut and Donnie talking about anime. I want to spend time with each of these characters, and I think the challenge will be, how do we do that without taking too much spotlight away from the Turtles in the film and also not making something that feels episodic? Making something that's a well-oiled machine that does right by all of the characters. Yeah, that would be one of the challenges.
Oh, that reminds me: What happened with Scumbug? Because the character poster released awhile back says "Scumbug as himself," but Scumbug is clearly a lady in the movie.
That was a marketing mistake, and we were furious about it. They put that out, I don't know who did that or how that happened, but we were immediately like, "That's not true. Don't put that in the world," and that will now be on the internet forever. But that was never the intention. That was never the character. We always imagined her to be a female cockroach. And that one poster was a slip up.
And just for funsies, what was your favorite Turtle toy growing up?
Pizza Shooter, 100%, final answer.
"Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem" is playing in theaters everywhere now.